tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post5869655857868209347..comments2020-05-10T14:58:23.496-07:00Comments on Hellenisti ginoskeis: do you know Greek?: John 4:23—God seeks those already worshiping Him?DJPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-74788641413720717742007-04-07T08:35:00.000-07:002007-04-07T08:35:00.000-07:00I guess my point in bringing up the echoes in John...I guess my point in bringing up the echoes in John 5 was to try and understand how a dispenationalist reading interprets Jesus when he is showing that eschatological sections of the OT are already beginning. <BR/>This is just one of the many 'already not yet' texts within John's gospel.The Last Hour Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05176470871677574842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-17665990732279925802007-04-06T17:48:00.000-07:002007-04-06T17:48:00.000-07:00We believe every word of it, of course. We don't, ...We believe every word of it, of course. We don't, however, see it as a warrant for emptying other verses of <I>their</I> meaning.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-762053061998150122007-04-06T15:34:00.000-07:002007-04-06T15:34:00.000-07:00Intriguing discussion is also needed when consider...Intriguing discussion is also needed when considering John 5:25-29 Jesus echoing Is 26:19, Ez 37:12 and Daniel 12:2 as already beginning. <BR/>Just wondering how a dispi would read this text.The Last Hour Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05176470871677574842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-5907073641556271682007-03-07T09:15:00.000-08:002007-03-07T09:15:00.000-08:00Sure, I'd love to.Let's try: "But the time is comi...Sure, I'd love to.<BR/><BR/>Let's try: "But the time is coming and is already here, when those who truly worship will worship the Father in Spirit and truth, because the Father also is seeking those ones who are worshiping Him."<BR/><BR/>Does that look like yours? Or another one? The grammar seems pretty straightforward but the English can still get wordy. I haven't thought out all the B Treecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16105988796529753243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-49769572216147136142007-03-07T07:46:00.000-08:002007-03-07T07:46:00.000-08:00Thanks for all of that, Big B.Could you take the r...Thanks for all of that, Big B.<BR/><BR/>Could you take the request that, so far, noboyd's taken? Give your own interpretive paraphrase of what Jesus is saying in 4:23?<BR/><BR/>Thanks!DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-14261358627961365792007-03-07T07:41:00.000-08:002007-03-07T07:41:00.000-08:00Dan, I agree with all the guys who appreciate this...Dan, <BR/>I agree with all the guys who appreciate this blog and thank God for it. I need encouragement in the Greek. In fact, I want to start doing this with some other young brothers in my church.<BR/><BR/>I have to agree with David in his 3-point post. The grammar and context seem to speak of an already-not yet reality - "a time is coming <I>and already is</I> when true worshippers will B Treecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16105988796529753243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-57719194000653048522007-02-28T17:05:00.000-08:002007-02-28T17:05:00.000-08:00Well, although the consensus seems to be against y...Well, although the consensus seems to be against your reading, you helped me come to understand the motivation for the doctrine of unconditional election, which I've been struggling with ever since I discovered that Calvinists have the most interesting blogs.<BR/><BR/>...And bonus points for using "midrash" idiomatically like that!Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-37562050774340151282007-02-28T15:42:00.000-08:002007-02-28T15:42:00.000-08:00mxu—I love that this blog's getting responses like...<B>mxu</B>—I love that this blog's getting responses like yours. Stay around!<BR/><BR/><B>Brian</B>—thanks!<BR/><BR/><B>Sewing</B>—let's make a deal. I'll remember that I haven't promised that every post would be a thundering, authoritative, binding word from Mt. Sinai; and you remember that all I look is for you to bring what you have, and grow with the rest of us. I don't demand that my DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-10903018633494317632007-02-28T14:26:00.000-08:002007-02-28T14:26:00.000-08:00Interesting post, a great ministry to keep us in t...Interesting post, a great ministry to keep us in the Greek. Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-16223711709602651162007-02-28T13:39:00.000-08:002007-02-28T13:39:00.000-08:00Dan -As a beginning NT Greek student who is just s...Dan -<BR/><BR/>As a beginning NT Greek student who is just starting to recognize participles, it was a delight to see you focusing on something I could recognize. I love the blog, I hope I can continue to come back to it to encourage me to do my own reading!<BR/><BR/>Thanks for this blog, and your other two =pMickey Sheuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956333218040153996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-14769459198582356762007-02-28T12:56:00.000-08:002007-02-28T12:56:00.000-08:00Hmmm, the more comments that come in, the more my ...Hmmm, the more comments that come in, the more my thoroughly non-linguistic reply looks lame by contrast!Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-53448337369350770912007-02-28T12:05:00.000-08:002007-02-28T12:05:00.000-08:00Three considerations, DJP (and thanks for this gre...Three considerations, DJP (and thanks for this great blog. I hope to be a regular. We all need this kind of sharpening).<BR/>1. Jesus begins by moving the discussion out of the way things are and into the way things will be now that He is around. The context, then, is "beginning, but not yet."<BR/>2. Like that, Jesus says that true worshipers προσκυνήσουσιν (will worship). Again, this moves Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17098709030966160553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-2360402057599880742007-02-28T12:01:00.000-08:002007-02-28T12:01:00.000-08:00(I'm not sure if this already posted...here's try ...(I'm not sure if this already posted...here's try 2)<BR/>I have to agree with c. stirling bartholomew. It seems that the common consensus maintains that atemporality for participles in general (with few exceptions). Picirilli reviewed Stanley Porter in a wonderfully concise treatment of this and similar issues. All of the translations cited translated it as such because that makes the most sense Hickory Hill Baptist Churchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615940181681279307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-22855632754829882612007-02-28T10:44:00.000-08:002007-02-28T10:44:00.000-08:00Thanks for your opinion, but I don't really see ho...Thanks for your opinion, but I don't really see how dismissing the question moves us ahead in understanding the passage. Does God seek people who are already worshiping Him in this manner? What does that mean, then? What is it that Jesus is saying?<BR/><BR/>I note, too, that you do nothing with the parallels I found.<BR/><BR/>Others?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-17653374195546275792007-02-28T10:26:00.000-08:002007-02-28T10:26:00.000-08:00I said:"The participle functions as an adjective w...I said:<BR/><BR/>"The participle functions as an adjective with the demonstrative."<BR/><BR/>This is somewhat misleading. The participle with the demonstrative refer to a particular class of worshiper. The time of worship in relation to God's seeking isn't an idea that John presents in this text.C. Stirling Bartholomewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571440237755902925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-81306299592897110872007-02-28T10:08:00.000-08:002007-02-28T10:08:00.000-08:00Dan,I think you are imposing a temporal framework ...Dan,<BR/><BR/>I think you are imposing a temporal framework on a statement which is atemporal. The participle functions as an adjective with the demonstrative. There is no authorial intent to specify some sort of temporal or logical sequence. John is stating a general truth about the kind of worshiper God seeks. <BR/><BR/>We should not import the post-reformational dogmatic disputes into the GJnC. Stirling Bartholomewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571440237755902925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-71577785180697373822007-02-28T08:55:00.000-08:002007-02-28T08:55:00.000-08:00DJP wrote, "I took it in the sense that there is i...DJP wrote, <BR/><BR/>"I took it in the sense that there is in true worship a mutual seeking. We seek after God, and He seeks after us (Psalm 145:18; Proverbs 15:8, 29, etc.)."<BR/><BR/>Perhaps there's something to that. I was raised as an atheist but in my adolescence—long before God first revealed himself to me—I already had a strong sense that there must be some kind of divine Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-47102295846154700102007-02-28T08:16:00.000-08:002007-02-28T08:16:00.000-08:00The "breakdown"? You mean, that it's a present act...The "breakdown"? You mean, that it's a present active participle, accusative masculine plural, from προσκυνέω?<BR/><BR/>As to the other, if someone has a particular thought, this is an open invitation for shared insights. John uses the word quite a bit in the Gospel, not at all in the Epistles, once in the Revelation.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4514726127775216123.post-11089377142383724922007-02-28T08:09:00.000-08:002007-02-28T08:09:00.000-08:00Sorry just thought of something...1) What's the br...Sorry just thought of something...<BR/><BR/>1) What's the breakdown of προσκυνοῦντας?<BR/><BR/>2) Isn't there more to be said about what ζητεῖ stems from? Meaning isn't it more then just a "seeking"? I.e. What's the difference between this greek word of actively seeking and the others?Frank Martenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13962831912421867593noreply@blogger.com